Some reaction to Parliament stabbing Canada in the back. This post will be updated throughout the day.
Tart Cider
Interesting. Quebec federalists partial to the whole “nation” thing would probably have found Harper’s Conservatives an even more “palatable federalist alternative” if this decision hadn’t been made at the point of a separatist gun. The Prime Minister had ample time to decide this was the right decision, and he opted against it.
Recognizing Quebec as a “nation”, even “within Canada”, is a disaster waiting to happen. It legitimizes the old idea that ethnic nationalism trumps civic nationalism (that ethnic nationalism is the only “real” nationalism), that Trudeau fought against his whole life. I never liked Trudeau, for many reasons, but I always agreed with him on this issue (as did the NDP at that time). Ethnic nationalism was the cause of most of the bloody history of the last 200 years. Whenever you get ethnicity trumping civic rights, you are bound to have “winners” and “losers” decided by genetic lottery. Why anyone would rush to endorse such an obviously bad idea, is beyond me.
The worst-case scenario is that this will be the first step towards the destruction Canada. If Ted Morton becomes Premier of Alberta, he will use this announcement to push for a new round of constitutional negotiations; and despite claims to the contrary, its only a matter of time before Quebec Premier Jean Charest sees it as being in his own political self interest to use this for the same.
Last night, watching the élites - that is, every politician in Canada - clapping each other on the back for their statesmanship, their lack of partisanship, and so on, I could have sworn I had been flung back in time to nearly 20 years ago, when another batch of politicians gathered at picturesque Meech Lake and praised each other for statesmanship and lack of partisanship and whatnot. Thereafter, as all of us old guys will remember, the country was flung into a downward spiral of misunderstandings, division and brinkmanship. The economy took a shit-kicking too, as I recall.
As leader of a minority Conservative government with no mandate to stir the Confederation debate, Harper would have been more prudent to simply declare the Bloc motion mischievous and urge all federalist Members of Parliament to join the Conservatives in voting it down.
Instead, he chose to play a dangerous game. Now MPs must debate and vote on two troublesome resolutions that will heighten concern about the country’s long-term unity. Both deserve to be voted down.
So let us give thanks for one thing: at least the pretense is over. The Prime Minister’s statement in the House yesterday, a statement no prime minister has ever made before, marks the moment when the idea of Canada finally shrugged, sighed, heaved and expired. The hollowing out of the national idea — of a vision of Canada as a coherent national entity, capable of acting with a single national purpose — is now complete. We are well on our way to Belgiumhood, and that suits our political class just fine.
Pandora’s box has now been opened. If you declare that Quebec is a ‘nation’, no matter how you word it, it instantly creates a rift of separatism. But this separatism is not just one that will inflame Quebec nationalism. Instead now every province will want to be a ‘nation’. What is to prevent BC, Alberta, Ontario or indeed any province from wanting to be a ‘nation’? And once we start going down this road, the links and ties that bind Canada together cannot do anything but weaken.
This latest opening up of the separatist can of worms would not have happened if Michael Ignatieff had not opened up his big yap. If he had not announced out of the blue that he thought of Quebec as a nation, then this discussion would be nowhere on the national radar. The Liberal Party would not have been thrown into a panic, the government would not have had to rush through an insta-policy on this, the Bloc would have continued their long slow slide into irrelevance, and the whole constitutional nightmare of the 1990s would have continued to fade into the background.
But no, Ignatieff had to go blundering into the most divisive possible area of Canadian politics, and just like that everything is going haywire.
Now, Jack Layton being who he is, has decided to endorse both resolutions, as if the single Conservative resolution which explicitly states that the Quebecois form a nation within a united Canada was not sufficient, and the parallel resolution which does not affirm Canadian unity is also necessary. What does this say about Jack’s perception of Canada? That he doesn’t have one, and will pander to separatists if he thinks it can get him over 7.5% of the vote in Quebec, which he miraculously garnered in the last federal election. I’ll remind you all that the provincial NDP adopted a sovereigntist platform in 1989, which Layton appears sympathetic to. Once again Jack, you’ve embarrassed your self and your party.
By tying language to this, Harper is giving the va te faire foutre to Anglophone, Allophone, and aboriginal Quebecers (but, then again, they all vote Liberal anyways). He also looks like he’s selling out his principles to score a few seats in Quebec which I’m sure will go over well with his base.
What poppycock. And what a transparent attempt to improve the Tories’ woeful third-place standing in recent polling in Quebec.
Setting up one province, or one region, of Canada as being distinct or separate from the nation as a whole is dangerous and divisive.
It can’t be THAT bad… Can it?
I mean, the First Nations are their own nation, why not the quebecois? I agree though that this is conceeding to the sepratists, but I suppose if you limit it to a population and not a province, it should be ok…
Stephen Harper has whored himself out to Big Oil, and the Quebec and Alberta separatists to dismantle Canada. Why does everyone seem to forget that Harper detests Canada? Remember, third-rate socialist backwater?
I can’t wait ’til we turf that idiotic buffoon out of government and send the Reform-a-Tories back to the wilderness for another decade.
Well the right is up in arms, I don’t think ol’ Stevie is gonna last another election…
parliament o’ whores.
Ti, Harper has done nothing for Alberta speratists and I don’t think big oil was too happy with the trust announcement. Also note that all parties outside Quebec support this. Even your beloved Jack.
Myself, I think it is a nothing move. Same old shit. Scary how much one province shapes our country.
Ti, Harper has done nothing for Alberta speratists
I beg to differ. He’s made “redneck” respectable in the more civilised areas of the country and has emboldened in-breds everywhere.
You and your obnoxious, relentless trolling being a case in point.
Ti, that is about the most closed minded, anti-Canadian thing that has come out of your mouth yet. so much for the high and mighty left being for unity. More civilised my ass. if more civilised is relying on the government to take care of every aspect of your life because you can’t do it yourself, you can keep it. Grown ups prefer to take care of their own lives.
So you tell me, what exactly is it that qualifies Albertans as rednecks? Is it the fact that we have the most groundbreaking hospital facility in the country? Or perhaps that we have the ONLY L.E.E.D.S. environmentaly built building in the country? Maybe it’s the fact that out here we prefer to work WITH other nations when developing technology instead of pissing them off.
The friggin high and mighty Eastern attitude is what drives a separatist notion in Canada, both in the Quebec AND in the west. Ontario is the butt of every joke in every other province except Ontario. And now the mighty Liberals are going to elect the one guy that almost singlehandedly ran the province into the ground…….nice. I was going to say the average Ontario Liberal has their head up their ass, but I did meet one guy…….he moved to Alberta bacause he didn’t like it there either.
Ti, that is about the most closed minded, anti-Canadian thing that has come out of your mouth yet.
Thank you.
Look, I’ve said this before. If you Connies don’t like how coarse the tone of public discourse has become, then you have only yourselves to blame. You guys started shrieking and condemning liberals and lefties for every god-damned problem that has arisen since 9/11…and you even blamed us for that.
So shove it. Until I see more of you roundly and soundly condemn the obnoxious mouth-breathers that claim ignorance, violence and racism are conservative values, I’ll continue to call you all in-bred hicks. Don’t like that?. Oh, dear…
The proverbial cat is out of the bag! ALL Cat Herders report for duty! LOL!
Gee, you mean like how I was one of the people who spearheaded having Anonalogue removed from BT when I was still a member. Or perhaps that many HAVE distanced themselves from the blind partisanship, which is a hell of a lot more than I can say is seen on the web from other parties. “Blindfolds on, time to vote Liberal”, the origonal policy theifs of Canada. You do realise that ALL Conservatives don’t live in Alberta don’t you? Or that ALL Albertans don’t vote Conservative? Nor do ALL Ontarians vote Liberal.
It wasn’t political reference I was slamming you on, it was the interprovincial “holier-than-thoughism” that spewed from your comment. I defend my province just as I defend my country when it is shown disrespect.
And your country thanks you, Dazzlin.
Look, I’ve been personally blamed for the NEP for decades now. Grow a thicker skin.
I know many Albertans, Dino. I like them all but two.
(…and keep pushing back against senseless vitriol. I do. lol)
Hey, Robert. You didn’t include any quotations from Jack Layton. We’re all curious. What exactly did he say about this motion which, apparently, has just killed the country forever (though I’m guessing more like in the way equal marriage was going to kill marriage forever).
Anyway, be interested to know what the NDP position was on this motion.
Let us all know.
Ted
Cerberus
This is a paste from what I basically said over at Red Tory,to lazy to retype.Much to long
In regard to Harpers acknowledgment that Quebec forms a nation, well that an obvious fact.At least the semantics debate is over.
Quebec like First Nations peoples have a right to define and agree(in talks with Canada) on the conditions and terms of their participation as Nations within Confederation.Up to including the right of secession.
Its not the right of one party,of whats is suppose to be a multi-national confederation.To decide the rules or boundaries of Confederation or that of the role and rights of its individual parts.
Quebec had no choice in the matter(because they were conquered,which does not negate their right of Nation) ,the agreements between FN peoples as to their participation in Canada were negotiated in some cases,e.g Mohawks.Then violated and dismissed by Canada,in practice.Other FN nations never gave up their rights or land.Never negotiated,never were consulted,never gave up their status as self contained nations of their own making and “laws”.
Its time to right this .Canada has to be a confederation of nations,based on procedure and agreements in which all sides are considered equals,of voice and weight.No one side has a right to decide the rules or boundaries.
It will be hard but so be it.This is a chance for Canada to shine as an example of how peoples of differing ethnic and national backgrounds can come together and live as equals in a federation,republic,or whatever the peoples of the various nations come to agreement on.
I have no fear of this process should it ever take place,knowing Canada and its history I know we can meet the challenge,and we will rise to the occasion and do right in our own eyes as well as Quebecers and FN peoples.And build a new Canada based on its diversity and inherent goodness.For real,in the hearts of all(First Nation and Quebecers included)and sealed by agreement binding on all sides equally and with out prejudice.
I look forward to the day when I see the face of Cnd icons on our money,the faces of all not just those who conquered.
Friday, November 24, 2006 1:49:30 AM
“I beg to differ. He’s made “redneck” respectable in the more civilised areas of the country and has emboldened in-breds everywhere.” and there it is. If any of you Ontarians are ever confused as to why Quebec or really the rest of Canada doesn’t like Ontario, read Ti’s quote above. Same kind of attitude the white man had when he came to Canada to try and “civilise” all those damn redskins.
Ti, I guess you don’t believe in one big Canada but would rather split the country up based on what you call the “more civilised” areas. How do you define civilised? Do you have to be white, do you have to be educated? What if I am Jewish, will I be allowed in your “civilised” nation?
urban ontario.
John is such a fucking idiot. One little crack and all of sudden, *I’m* the utlimate source of pure evil.
What a douche.
It’s not a crack, it’s how you think. I picked up on it a long time ago but never have you put it so bluntly before. If I am a “fucking idiot” for pointing out your bigotry and ignorance, not to mention the overwhelming arrogance you give off, then so be it.
“What a douche.” grow up already.
I picked up on it a long time ago
Yes, we’re all aware of how perceptive you are, Lil’ Johnny. Tell me, all the people who’ve bothered interacting with you have pretty much come to the conclusion that you’re an idiot.
Are they all wrong, or just like me….irretrievably hate-filled, arrogant, bigoted, and so forth? And when you answer please provide “links a proof.” *snort*
“Are they all wrong, or just like me….irretrievably hate-filled, arrogant, bigoted, and so forth? And when you answer please provide “links a proof.” *snort*”
Nope, not at all. Just a select few. In fact, I find most posters quite normal, even the ones I disagree with. I guess you can consider yourself “special”.
I guess this is where you retort by calling me a psycho, or a liar or a dildo or something equally mature. Have a good weekend Ti.
Drop dead.
John, you’ve reached exactly the right conclusion regarding Ti-Guy. He is certifiably fucking insane. Even when he stops hurling juvenile insults long enough to state his position on something, he comes off sounding like a nutcase. Exhibit A:
That there has never been a shred of evidence to back up any of this nonsense won’t stop Ti-Guy from spewing it. What Ti-Guy says never bothers me. What does bother me is that other regulars seem to treat him as though he’s almost normal. Some of them seem to be genuinely decent people, yet they casually tolerate this primate’s behavior as though it were somehow…acceptable.
paladiea and dirk, thank you for your mention of first nations.
its not just the constitution that protects first nations (supposedly, laughing stock that that one is), but a royal proclamtion that still stands under rule of law and goes back to the b.n.a. and actually withstands under the magna carta that sees aboriginals as SOVEREIGN nations…..and therein lies the difference.
semantics are one thing, but quebec has not been made sovereign. while this may pump up the p.q. sovereigntists for a bit,it would still take a referendum within their own proviince then negotiations with canada to achive this. let’s call everyone a nation, my dog is a nation.
HOWEVER, if we look at the history of what quebec sovereigntists ever came up with there was no room for natives and they dispelled SOVEREIGN rights of natives….quebec is no better than canada and the provinces ….in the end they want our land for minerals and resources and DO NOT WANT to recognize sovereign native nations and all the unceded territory.
meantime the strides continue to co-opt natives and have us all play the ‘let’s be a nice canada and all get along together….using the conqueror’s ways’. well, they’e got their many a corrput chief and council in power, paid and swayed to play along, but these guys are getting voted out left, right and center.
so to quebec, i say, ‘ya, feel like a down trodden people? cry me a river when you treat others like you get treated’. a bit like zionist israel, isn’t it?
i see iggy is now denying he ever declared the ‘quebec as a nation’ thing. ship him back to the states and put steve in as exta baggage.
Ewps. I better tone it down. I”ve attracted the psycho Manitoba redneck and Lord knows, that’ll *never* end.
“Attracted” isn’t the word I would use.
And here I was hoping the next time RR graced us with his presence would have been to announce excitedly to us all that he was no longer a virgin.
Colour me disappointed.
If by ‘virgin’ you mean I’ve never been penetrated anally by another man, you are correct. I have not had the benefit of long stays in prison like you have. Whether or not you should be proud of that is another matter.
i wonder when federalist quebeckers will get tired of winning referendums to no avail?
I have not had the benefit of long stays in prison like you have. Whether or not you should be proud of that is another matter.
*sigh* Wingnuts and humour.
i really think that’s a bit of a myth, anyway. most prison sex is probably consensual.
I wasn’t even thinking of prison sex. I was referring to good ol’, conservative-approved, hetero-normative, missionary style de-flowering. I can’t help it if someone’s mind is constantly somewhere else. I don’t think wingnut men can go two minutes without thinking of ass fucking in prison.
Now….why is that, exactly?
wow, this post went sideways real fast!
Fuck off, ya fuckin’ troll.
Right you are Sooey. I would think nearly all of it is consensual. Of course I wouldn’t know. Perhaps another commenter on this board could shed some light on that. Ti?
Just ask the commenters at your ‘tard blog, Ranty. Most of them sound like ex-cons.
“Fuck off, ya fuckin’ troll”.
Excuse me? You’re right Ti, this post about federalism was missing the whole “homosexual sex” element. Sigh. I just don’t understand why this country can be so polarized. Snort.
Yeah, Ok. Now just fuck off, troll.