I wasn’t planning to blog about Disney’s two part liefest, The Path To 9/11 (alternate title: Clinton Did It) until I came across its Canada connection.
But there is another big problem with the movie: most of the shooting was exported to Canada to save money, diverting millions of dollars from the American economy.
The filming occurred in Toronto and areas surrounding the GTA. The first thought that came to me upon learning this was, If it turns out that this movie…received any of my tax dollars…
Well it did.
On Saturday, September 24th, City Hall will be transformed into the American Embassy in Yemen for the filming of a television production, and the American flag will fly from the flagpole during the shooting. The Yemeni and United Nations flags will also fly from the flag standards on the Council Chambers roof.
UHP Productions will be on site filming a miniseries starring Harvey Keitel (of Reservoir Dogs, and Pulp Fiction fame), Patricia Heaton (best known as Debra Barone from Everybody Loves Raymond), and former “New Kid On the Block”, Donnie Wahlberg. The production is currently referred to as the Untitled History Project.
Many of these productions have chosen Hamilton as their home base because of our diverse locations, streamlined approvals process and ‘open to filming’ attitude. Provincial tax incentives are also a significant draw.
“Tax incentives have definitely influenced a number of domestic productions to film here in Hamilton rather than in Toronto. Productions shot in the Toronto area receive a 30% provincial tax credit, and productions shot outside of the GTA receive an additional 10% credit, which is very appealing when you consider most films operate on multi-million dollar budgets,” McNeilly explains.
While I have no problem with taxpayer dollars going toward projects to help further develop Canada’s multi-billion dollar film industry, I do draw the line at it being used to fund Republican propaganda.
Given the fact that the production company, UHP Productions, went out of its way to hide the true nature of its film by billing it as an “untitled history project”, the Canadian government should immediately cancel these tax credits and demand that any monies given to the company be returned. The Canadian taxpayer should not be expected to fund the Republican Party’s election campaign.
Get a grip, Robert. Tax credits are NOT the same as taxpayer funding. Yes, it means less taxes received, but without the credits the film would have been done elsewhere and none of the benefits or jobs would have accrued to Hamilton.
Here’s how your tax dollars (real expenditures) are really being spent:
I refer to the funding of the 2006 Vancouver Queer Film Festival by the Department of Canadian Heritage and the films it financially supported: “Deconstructing Crack Ho”, “Dyke After Dyke”, “I cum I”, “Lesbians On Ecstasy”, “Post-Porn & New Technologies Of Pleasure”, and “Toilet Sex In Canadian Cinema.”
So tell us Robert. Are you on board with these taxpayer funded films - after all, they’re hardly ones that Republicans nor Conservatives would approve.
I can’t believe our tax dollars are funding Republican propaganda. Where’s the outrage?
A little off topic perhaps, but since you’ve got your panties in a knot over tax credits, how do you feel about the movers and shakers of the NDP meeting with Stephen Lewis, Gary Doer, Jack and Shirley while being subsidized by…. wait for it….. TAX CREDITS!!!
Meanwhile, the great unwashed proletariat of the NDP get to spend $10 (no tax credit) for a Saturday night, buy your own booze, mixer.
Typical NDP. Do as we say, not as we do.
An intimate affair
with Stephen Lewis and Gary Doer
Friday, September 8th - 9:30 p.m.
Celebrate with Stephen Lewis and Gary Doer in the beautiful Panorama Club (Hilton Hotel) overlooking Quebec’s evening skyline. Mingle with members of the NDP caucus and treat your taste buds to Quebec’s finest cheeses and appetizers.
$200 (with $150 TAX RECEIPT)
Limited tickets available
Book your ticket today!
A taste of Québec SOLD OUT
with Jack Layton and Shirley Douglas
Saturday, September 9th - 6:30 p.m.
Join Jack Layton and Shirley Douglas for a modern take on traditional Quebec fare in the heart of the old city. Dine by the Chateau Frontenac and la rue de Trésor – the artistic centre of Quebec.
$150 (with $100 TAX RECEIPT)
http://www.ndp.ca/page/3771
Robert, do you like Michael Moore? Just curious.
Why isn’t anyone outraged at Canadian tax dollars funding Republican propaganda?
There should be no tax credits at all for anything. Why is the film industry any more important than any other industry? Fuck Hollywood North. Either reduce taxes across the board, or leave them alone. Tax credits are just another subsidy.
That aside, I must admit, the irony of watching the progressive-liberal crowd get hit with yet another ball of their own shit is delicious. Remember the protests in front of Queens Park three years ago demanding tax credits for the film industry be reinstated? Those weren’t conservatives that were protesting, I can tell you that. How’s it feel?
More brutal fantasies of progressives being humliated. And yet, no outrage over tax dollars funding Repulbican propaganda.
How bizarre.
And yet, no outrage over tax dollars funding Repulbican propaganda.
Nope, just a lot of spin. “Other stuff is funded too” ” Yeah, well Michael Moore is fat.”
There’s just never enough outrage to go around.
Millionaire actors and actresses get large tax breaks whenever Hollywood shoots films up here. But nothing. No complaints. Well, maybe this will demonstrate the folly of the entire racket.
There’ll be no outrage from conservatives because we’ll be too busy enjoying watching the progressives peeling the shit off their faces. That makes it worth the wasted taxpayers’ money. Maybe next time the
welfarearts community asks fortax creditssubsidies, Canadians will tell them to go fuck themselves. If it takes funding Republican propaganda to convince Canadians of what a complete clusterfuck the whole tax-credit-for-film-production scam is, so be it.The logical universe of Wingnuttia, where every argument begins with…Yeah, well about the Fibranos…etc. etc. It’s inspiring in its resiliance, if nothing else.
Insight is fleeting, but dumb is eternal.
BTW…I wonder if Reichwingers understand the concept of “chain yanking?”
It’s time for a big TOLD YOU SO!
About Iraq? Absolutely.
Come to think of it, I wonder how many Canadian arms manufacturers have received “government investments to create jobs”, which in turn have gone on to supply arms for America’s adventures in Iraq. I’ll have to look into the Technology Partnership Fund transactions a little more carefully. Now wouldn’t that be sweet. The Canadian taxpayer “investing” in…bombing Iraqis. But of course that doesn’t preclude government “investment in job creation”, it only means we’re not doing it right.
It’s called the law of unintended consequences. And right now it’s biting you in the ass. HARD.
In other words…”Yeah, well what about the Fibranos…” I believe I covered that in no. 11.
Now, about the Republican piece of garbage propaganda film…I’m off to see to what level of stupidity the Reichwingers will stoop to support it. So far, I’ve seen “even if it’s factually incorrect, it’s still true…” That’s a perenial favourite, it seems.
Ah, the artiste’ set and tax credits!
Well, American actors and actresses should be PAYING Canadian taxes if they are hired by a Canadian company. No tax credits.
After visiting the National Art Gallery in Ottawa a few weeks ago I can say that the building is very nice. What is in it is not what I, for the most part, consider as art! After viewing the Emily Carr collection I found out what a hermit on LSD must see!
Supporting things like the theater district, and small community theaters I have no problem with…they build actual culture and try to be profitable.
I am also for assisting, in minor and meaningful ways the film industry where real films are made. It should be a function of the provincial and municipal governments for the most part!
The gross fringe producers should go elsewhere, or are we now arresting people for porn while funding its manufacture?.
Ti-Guy,
You are right on spot about the ABC mini-series being Republican propaganda! That, despite all the other diversive comments here, is the real issue of this topic.
That…and yanking wingnut chains.
republicans are pretty stupid. it’ll reveal more about them than anything else. and the canadian 2006 census was contracted out to lockheed martin, raging ranter. lockheed martin is an arms contractor. we’re there. the previous government put us there. they’ve already traded at least one employee with homeland security, too. sleep tight.
gawd, republicans are evil. canadians should turf that boot licking toady harper out on his lazy ass before he sucks us any deeper into their slime pit of an administration.
anyway, disney did that lemmings to the sea “documentary”, too. murderous bastards.
“There’ll be no outrage from conservatives because we’ll be too busy enjoying watching the progressives peeling the shit off their faces.”
Actually, plenty of American conservatives have spoken in outrage. Not nececessairily to the tax breaks the film gets, but the fact that it spews outright lies.
Of course Canadian conservatives are so scared to speak their minds that they’ll defend even the most odious piece of propaganda to death.
they are pretty chickenshit, eh? stupid, too. since they should know by now - like the rest of us do - that the bush administration is composed of a bunch of lying incompetent thugs.
by the way, does michael moore received canadian taxpayer funding for his documentaries?
He must have, because of his enormous girth, and all.
How come no one’s mentioned the $500,000,000 (that’s a five hundred million dollar!) present/slush fund Herr Harper just gave the Republican Party to spread around as they wish? All thanks to the funds stolen from our forest industry?
Who gives a fuck about the paltry numbers involved in another forgetable peice of shit Disney movie?
Step back and take a good, hard look at the big picture, ladies.
I bitched about that last week Then I heard the fucking Bloc is going to support the Conservatives in passing the softwood agreement. What are we going to do to stop this?
Well Ti, you could try making a movie about it I guess. Apparently there’s a generous 30% tax credit available. I’d move on it quick though. I’m guessing that tax credit might find itself under a little scrutiny in the near future.
Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahhahahahhahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahaha
God that was so hilarious, I laughed myself right out of the comments window.
….
“I’d move on it quick though. I’m guessing that tax credit might find itself under a little scrutiny in the near future.”
Yah given the Connie’s record so far, they’ll look at it, “slash” it, and then we find out that it really increased by 10%.
Or, they’ll make it more “accountable” but then later on we realise that it’s actually less accountable than it was before.
Oh and I almost forgot. Then they claim victory.
These pathetic right whingers really are an astoundingly dum pack of traitors. They’re such yankee wannabes they can’t tell the difference between funding a film festival in Vancouver and funding Republican propaganda. Funding something meant for Canadians as opposed to something meant for Americans. If these wingnuts lose any more IQ points we’ll soon have to water them. Besides “Deconstructing Crack Ho” sounds extremely interesting and relevant. I understand it’s a provocative look at President Harper’s political career. And the downward spiral of degradation that led him to sell his country out for practically nothing. Or the price of a $5 blow job in the Oval Office which amounts to the same thing. You’d think these right-wingnuts would love it. Duh? But no. Forget the watering can. I think we’re going to need a fire hose…
arthurdecco,
BTW, I have the requested link up at my blog fopr you.
Now, how abiout the latest BIG BUCKS Ottawa is seemingly going to dish out? How about $8 Billion to BOEING! for C-17 and helos for our CF’s!
Boeing has $8B military contract, company says
http://www.thestar.com
So, how does this figure on the bottom line? Okay so Bush gives Canada back the billions he stole and we give them right back DOUBLE! Boy, those must be some meetings they have?
Sleep tight tonight Canada, your neo-con government is awake and making deals!
We can’t ask the film industry in Canada to monitor the political leanings of every film that is made here. I really doubt this is a partisan flick, apparently it atributes faults on both sides. Furthermore the Clintonistas haven’t even seen the 5 hour docudrama yet so i dont understand the speculation.
Micheal Moore’s ” documentary” was a clearly partisan and politically biased movie. There was no outrage by the right, just objection. Clintonistas and the left have tried to censor the free media for fear that some of their mistakes may be revealed. I am outraged that the left would actually try to censor this and even threaten ABC’s licence.
Canada is host to countless american productions everyear. I believe we should grant them the same freedom of expression we enjoy ourselves. Where would we be if started censoring the media to our political whims? Cuba?
We can’t ask the film industry in Canada to monitor the political leanings of every film that is made here.
Absolutely correct.
I really doubt this is a partisan flick, apparently it atributes faults on both sides.
On what evidence do you base this observation?
Furthermore the Clintonistas haven’t even seen the 5 hour docudrama yet so i dont understand the speculation.
On what evidence do you base this observation? Key scenes have been described as counter-factual to recorded evidence.
Micheal Moore’s ” documentary” was a clearly partisan and politically biased movie.
On what evidence do you base this observation?
There was no outrage by the right, just objection.
I believe Moore received death threats. He was called a traitor. He was called “fat.”
Clintonistas and the left have tried to censor the free media for fear that some of their mistakes may be revealed.
On what evidence to you base the assertion that anyone is resorting to censorship? Remember, censorship means the use of coercion or force to block the dissemination of information.
I am outraged that the left would actually try to censor this and even threaten ABC’s licence.
On what evidence do you base the assertion that anyone is threatening ABC’s licence?
Canada is host to countless american productions everyear. I believe we should grant them the same freedom of expression we enjoy ourselves.
No one has stopped them. Why is this an issue?
Where would we be if started censoring the media to our political whims? Cuba?
Again, where is the evidence that anyone is engaging in censorship?
I eagerly await your clarifications on this, Jorgie.
More Path to 9/11 lies here…this time defaming American Airlines.
Maybe we’ll see some litigation after all.
Robert,
Great links BTW!
I like this quote:
YESSIRREE Bob, Them Greenbacks are what is the most important thing! Yahsir, They be taking those USD’s abroad. maybe it’s because the Americans just can’t do the job…efficiently and at a reasonable cost? I mean, you can only divvy up the megabucks so much ’til it becomes meaningless. Them thar Hollywood and NYC boys like their perks and ain’t about to be givvin’ them to no low life union slags!
Just had to add a little ‘Merican in there for a change!
Boo Hoo Hoo!
Ok… I’m not an expert by any means, but doesn’t this simply relate to competition?
After all, any film is only going to be shot once, so wherever it’s budget is spent will be getting a one time shot in the arm. If it’s in a Canadian city, we get a financial gain that otherwise would not exist. Even if the government was completely neutral (charged no taxes at all), the boost in the local economy would be a benefit to the citizens of that area.
So, different locations are really competing with each other to have films made there. Sure, there are some factors where price doesn’t matter, as in Peter Jackson choosing New Zealand for Lord of the Rings, but if it’s a regular city scene, then price probably calls the shots.
That being the case, what is wrong with cities or provinces offering to charge lower taxes for a film? The people making the film are not availing themselves of all the services that those taxes fund, and are contributing to the local economy independent of taxes. As long as government doesn’t go beyond breaking even on the costs incurred, it’s a plus.
The trick is, we need to have the government accountants take a few minutes and make sure they are at least breaking even on these projects… with the computers they have, it should be very easy to do.
Montreal Simon, how is it that the Ontario government funds film festivals in Vancouver? The tax credits that went into this film were all provincial from what I can tell. Does that mean McGuinty is a stupid right winger who can’t tell the difference? It was he, after all, who reinstated that retarded tax credit after a bunch of artsy protesters descended on Queen’s Park demanding it. He should have told them to fuck off.
Some comments are going to have be processed through an Asshole-to-English translator.
….off to check AltaVista…
Steve Heath,
I think the point goes towards federal funding, and the financing of films that are way off the charts in the name of artsy fartsy! Something like a Crucifix in a jar of urine!
As to McGuinty…as the Queen would say ‘We are NOT impressed!’
Raging Ranter, I don’t object to tax credits to help our film industry. I simply find it revolting that in this case we’ve helped finance and produce a filthy piece of Republican propaganda about a subject as important as 911. On the other hand I was also shocked that they decided to shoot the Day of Destruction scenes in downtown Toronto rather than in New York City. I’m afraid that in addition to all its other flaws this pathetic production will also be panned for the drab and dull performances of its extras…
I think this post is really a retaliation for La Shaidle screeching about the George Bush assassination movie, wherein she burst several blood vessels and suffered rectal prolapse imagining that any of her tax dollars had gone into the production.
Ti-Guy,
Notice how Jorgie doesn’t mention that CBC’s ‘Fifth Estate’ broadcast almost all the points of ‘Farenheit 9/11′ before it was even on theaters? We just didn’t have to look at Slob Boy watching it!
So, I guess that the CBC is also biased in presentling established facts as partisan and politically biased news?
I never saw F9/11. I didn’t really feel the need to.
Ti-Guy,
Go rent it and watch it. It is well worth the time. I own the DVD because it will be interesting, now and then, to reflect back on points presented as the Bush Empire crumbles into a mass of protoplasmic slime!
Oh, and something I noted the other day about the ABC piece of neo-comdom propaganda…They found a USAF C-130 pilot who has stated he ’saw’ the flight headed towards the Pentagon. I wonder what that cost the Bush and ABC spin doctors? There is NO evidence of a 757 hitting the Pentagon…PERIOD!
This just in…
Former US President Bill Clinton is reported to have seized control of an airliner and is planning to fly it into the CN Tower.
Film at 11. This is ABC News.
Montreal Simon, that’s my point. How can we hand out tax credits and be sure that they won’t go to funding a viewpoint we don’t like. It seems ridiculous to put any kind of stipulation on content, as that would defeat the purpose of funding any creative arts. The solution is not to fund them. The Ontario government had cancelled the tax credit at one time, they should do so again imediately.
Bill - I hear you on that, but aren’t these basically tax rebates on taxes paid in this case, as opposed to grants? (ie, come to Ontario, pay 8% tax on most of your crap, and we’ll give you back 30% of that, meaning they still are paying 5.6% tax… or am I understanding this wrong?)
As far as Michael Moore, I was a fan of what he wanted to do and how until he confessed to doctoring evidence to make his point more obvious. As far as I’m concerned, right or left, that’s beyond spin doctoring (taking words out of context) into blatant lying, and thus, I have no use for his films. It doesn’t matter that 90% of it might be pure, unvarnished truth, since I can’t trust any of it not to be the 10% that he lies about, I can’t trust the point he’s trying to make.
That said, as an accountant, posterity will show GWB just absolutely tanking his economy… sure, things seem to be looking good now (6, 7 years later) that the tax cuts are stimulating the economy, but it’s his unfunded future liabilities for medicare and social security that are looking scary, and the tax cuts just made them worse.
Find a site that archives Paul Krugman, Steve Heath, (that is if you haven’t read his New York Times’ columns already.)
He has carefully documented the horrendous policy changes of the Bush (mis)administration and their likely outcomes since they started systematically sucking dry the financial future of their citizens for the exclusive benefit of their financial supporters early in Bush’s first term.
And so far, he’s almost always been right on the money.
this is from an interview about “the corporation”:
The film’s premise did little to expedite funding. Achbar brought in Bakan after a year of trying it solo.
“I didn’t anticipate they’d start throwing money at us,” said Bakan. “A lot of people felt the project was either too dull or too controversial.”
But their ideas were ultimately persuasive, and Vision TV, a boutique Canadian broadcaster, was the first to climb on board. Several ironies soon became apparent: To qualify for Canadian public funding, Achbar had to form a for-profit corporation. Not long after, the pair found themselves surrounded by corporate logos at the annual Banff Television Festival.
“The challenge in the Canadian system is always to get the broadcasters on board first, because that’s what triggers all the other funding,” said Achbar, who saw the project expand from a one-hour Canadian broadcast to a worldwide theatrical release clocking in at almost 2 1/2 hours. Core contributors to the film’s budget (nearly $1 million) are nonprofit, publicly funded, educational, and Canadian.
Achbar — who will see a return only if the film “profits enormously” — has no regrets. “If the film makes money, Canadian taxpayers make money,” he said.
anyway, i can’t find any evidence that farenheit 9/11 or any of michael moore’s documentaries received canadian government funding.
Steve Heath,
Ah, the purist approach! I like thinking like a farmer, and more specifically like a miller and baker. See, having watched grain being grown, harvested, ground, and made into bread I know that in all flour is some DIRT! Call it True Grit!
So, some like White Bread, thinking it is pure and wholsome, because…’Hey, it’s WHITE…no little dark specks to be seen.
Others, like the more nitty gritty whole grain breads. You are not sure exactly what ‘grains’ are in there…could be sand grains, eh?
So, you chew it, swallow it, take the nutrients from it, and dump the rest. But, in the end you have derived benefit from the entire process!
Documentaries and movies are like that. They require some effort to garner a benefit from their content. Some will be eventually dumped, but they still hold goodness!
I liked your analogy, Bill
arthurdecco,
Thank you! I thought you would appreciate the analogy! *S*
Sorry Bill, I usually agree with you, but we’re talking two completely different things. With a loaf of bread, your body innately knows which is digestible and which is… or eventually becomes… shit
With a documentary movie such as this, the only way you know when something is shit is if you research every fact independently, and if you have to do that, what’s the point in watching the documentary? Unless, of course, it’s just to reinforce your own pre-conceived notions. After all, the people on this site, yourself included, seem to dislike it when the republican propaganda machine distorts the truth… there is NO DIFFERENCE.
It’s like saying “let’s have a serious debate and settle a profoundly important issue that has implications for all of us, but hey, feel free to lie all you want to win the debate”. It’s really sad that as a society we are so accepting of lies and mistruths. Journalists used to be the ones to be the independent fact checkers, and instead they now propogate the lies and misdirections.
Note that I’m not talking about all the republican sites saying “Moore lied in this movie”, I’m talking about his own admissions of where he bent the truth. The problem is that once they can legitimately discredit people like Moore, it’s hard for others who do not bend the truth to avoid the same brush, and the entire movement (ie, gun control) is set back.
republicans smear their opponents, anyway. they rig elections, ferchrissakes. i like moore’s chutzpah. so he’s flawed. i’m sick of moderates telling people who are mad as hell and doing something about it to play it straight. fuck that shit. moore admits to his flaws and makes another movie. that’s the way to move forward. get it done and let ‘em howl. nellie mcclung.
The problem is that once they can legitimately discredit people like Moore, it’s hard for others who do not bend the truth to avoid the same brush, and the entire movement (ie, gun control) is set back.
I understand what you’re saying, but to a great extent, I see Michael Moore’s work within the perspective of administering some sort of corrective within a media environment that has little interest in informing people in any real way. Lies and distortions are unforgivable but can be understandable (depending on the scale and gravity) when you’re dealing with an audience that is overwhelmingly ignorant of history or current events, and that even has trouble understanding its own constitution and how its government operates.
I didn’t see F911 but I know from reading reactions to it that a lot of people were completely unaware of the interference of the American government, military and industry in the politics and economics of other countries, and that this has been going on for quite some time. I mean, if you are a citizen of the wealthiest, most powerful, supposedly most democratic and advanced nation on Earth and you have no idea what your country was doing in Guatemala or Nicaragua or why it invaded Grenada (…etc.etc.), where do you start dismantling the myths that you’ve come to accept as reality?
It wouldn’t be with complex, insightful, rigourous documentaries that some of us are used to (…which are apparently too dull to hold the attention of the average viewer anyway)…it would something like F911.
hehehe - the more the right goes after him and the more the moderates tsk tsk him, the more i like him.
Fascinating. You slagged Kate here: http://myblahg.com/?p=1173. (”Meine Kulture Kampf”)
Now you decided to copy her post. Don’t you have any ideas of your own.?
It’s called sarcasm. Since Robert already linked to that post in the post above. Man conservatives are getting dumber and dumber.
Good to see you back, Paladiea. You go, girl!
…grrr…
LOL!
shlemazl doesn’t approve of sarcasm.
Ti-Guy - very, very interesting points. I’m gonna have to dwell on that for a while, but it makes sense when you think of it as to who the audience really is.
And I remember one of the American TV shows, can’t remember which one, asking Americans if they knew Saddam had been on the American payroll, and not only did at least 20 odd people not know that (I have no idea what % it was, don’t know how many they asked), but one of them got really outraged and was calling the reporter a liar and a traitor… despite the USA’s support of Saddam being public knowledge! Crazy!
Ti-Guy: re Lies and distortions are unforgivable but can be understandable (depending on the scale and gravity) when you’re dealing with an audience that is overwhelmingly ignorant of history or current events.
The problem is, of course, that a liar working to show someone else as a liar doesn’t keep much credibility, certainly not enough to make a compelling case. In short, there is enough damaging evidence to suggest that Moore is merely a another fact-fudging propagandist, albeit for the “other side”. It would be one thing had Moore merely made errors of knowledge, but it is another when the mis-statements were made intentionally.
It’s not like he wouldn’t have had the ability to make a case if he’d stuck to the truth.
The problem is, of course, that a liar working to show someone else as a liar doesn’t keep much credibility, certainly not enough to make a compelling case.
Oh, I agree. But desperate times call for desperate measures, all’s fair in love and war…etc. etc.
In short, there is enough damaging evidence to suggest that Moore is merely a another fact-fudging propagandist, albeit for the “other side”.
Eh…I’d like to see a comparision of which side does more damage. Can you provide a cost-benefit analysis of that?
Look, Ron…When Disney is channeling 40 million dollars into an egregious revision of the history of a very serious event, the consequences of which are resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of people and the radicalisation of their extremely angry survivors, I’m not going to worry about Michael Moore’s editorialising.
Besides, he’s fat.
Paladiea:
Mia Culpa; I did not click the link. Now I see that the sarcasm in this post is truly amazing.
the more the right disses michael moore, the more i’m going to praise him. that’s going to be my mission in life. ’cause he really causes those assholes to squirm.
Mia Culpa;
It’s spelled mea culpa, silly little shlemazl.
“Mia Culpa [sic]; I did not click the link. Now I see that the sarcasm in this post is truly amazing.”
Awww it’s trying it’s hand at sarcasm! How cute!
Of course, Robert’s sarcasm must be amazing from your point of view if it went over your not so pretty little head. Although that’s not saying much from what I’ve seen of your wit.
Like I’ve said before, I have a hard time taking grief from a fat multi-millionare who lives in a compound in NY City. To boot who cuts that fucking clowns hair. Helen Keller could do a better job than than. ‘Course that fat cocksucker could sneek up on Helen Keller in the first place. As far as the miniseries goes I guess Billy should have been minding the store instead of getting blowjobs from the hired help. Got caught with his pants down didn’t he, in more than a few ways.
Boomer! Quick! Stick your head in the bowl! Further! Yes!…Now flush!
arthurdecco,
Do you think it’s
intelligentaware enough to be able to pull the handle or should I do…in my most altruistic moment of the day? PUSH!Gee tomorrow is the BIG DAY! Yessir, the 5th Anniiversary of 9/11…and still no solid answers! FIVE WHOLE YEARS of WMD’s…Words of Mass Deception! How do they do it? How do they do it, indeed?
“Oh, and something I noted the other day about the ABC piece of neo-comdom propaganda…They found a USAF C-130 pilot who has stated he ’saw’ the flight headed towards the Pentagon. I wonder what that cost the Bush and ABC spin doctors? ”
Bill,
That piece of information is right out of the 9/11 report. In fact, the pilot was featured on “Secrets of 9/11,” which aired on the CBC tonight.
Well, if it’s going to appear on the CBC tonight, it must be true, Frank!
yeah. boomer. michael moore is the problem. good grief. what a bunch of gormless twits you conservatives be. wow. guy lives the american dream and turns around to light the path and you corporate peons throw mud at him and run back down the path to wallow in the muck and lick your conservative masters’ teeny tiny balls. “take more of our money for yourselves, oh great conservative masters. kill more of our young in your self-aggrandizing battles overseas that protect your mutual fund portfolios. ENSLAVE US FURTHER IN OUR OWN COUNTRIES!”
Frank the Democrat,
Where do you think I saw it? Duh ‘oh!
Show me evidence of a 757 hitting the Pentagon and, after applying my decades of analytical knowledge (which I already have after reviewing all the photos and flics) , I will say ‘There was NO 757 that hit the Pentagon.
Likewise, if you review the FACTS, the transponder of AL 77 was turned off a long way away. It could have been diverted anywhere. The pilot claims he saw an airplane. The evidence at the Pentagon is that a cruise missile struck it. The only ‘blip’ observed was a raw basic one, no ID or Mode ‘C’ (Altitude) data was available…standard for ARTCC RADAR when a transponder is not in use, which is mandatory for all IFR flights, especially commerical.
As to it being part of the 9/11 Commission Report! ROFLMAO! Even Sen. Lee Hamilton doubts they had any answers. He is a lawyer, and lawyers think this way. ‘If I cannot prove what I want to prove then I will find a way to make others ignore it as being important!’ Hamilton even clearly states ‘We still have many unanswered questions from the Bush Administration!’ They even admit that 90% oif the factual information was excluded from their report. The report was not intended to determine who did the act, but how to prevent it from happening again.
I lived through theJFK/RFK assassinations. The Warren Commission report was also written by a bunch of lawyers who could not be trusted to apply techincal realities to the evidence.
Like George Carlin says ‘The American people are not given enough credit for how DUMB they are!’
They have failed to convince me, and I have far more expertise in the field than you can imagine!
rightwingers prefer to believe what they are told by their government.
Bill,
Yes, we have discussed flight 77 before.
In your intial post to which I was referring, you intimated that you were unaware of that piece of information (pilot of cargo plane witnessing flight 77 hitting Pentagon) prior to the ABC “documentary.”
Without referring to the validity of the evidence (arthurdecco), I was merely pointing out that the pilot gave evidence to the 9/11 Commission and that the pilot was featured in a documentary on CBC.
Frank the Democrat,
For that I do thank you! *S* Sorry for being a tad snarky on my post!
I noted he was more than a pilot…He is a USAF C-130 pilot! That right there triggers my mind as being a questionable witness. He has the training to be observant, the knowledge and communication means to be part of the event. It seems a tad too convenient, in light of the lack of physical evidence at the Pentagon, that this USAF pilot was found and made such a statement.
The amount of CMA (Cover My Arse) in such situations grows expotentially!
Bill,
No apology necessary. I have sensed in the past that you are passionate about this subject.
Interestingly, the documentary was the first time I have actually seen and heard from the pilot in question. All other reports, including the 9/11 Commission, have merely referred to his observations.
Hey, Isn’t Shirley Douglas in this movie. Where is the outrage? Working on Republican propoganda as Ti-guy claims the movie to be. So does that make Shirley a stooge for McBushitler?
I’m not the only one claiming it’s Republican propaganda. Half the American voting population appears to think so.
Was Shirley Douglas in this thing? I have no idea. I’m not watching it, after all.
I don’t care about 9/11 any more.
Frank the Democrat,
Yes, I am passionate, but perhaps in a way most never are. I am passionate to, for once…even once, hear the lying POS’s in WDC come out and tell the truth on any subject.
I am a Boomer, one of the very first, and after all these decades of hearing nothing but spin doctored BS, I am passionate to hear some point blank honesty out of the liars that sit in high places.
They spout off about bravery, and all the BS terms they like to use mean nothing. They are not even brave enough to own up to their own total FUBAR’s!
I can forgive mistake when they are admitted to…That is human…We make mistakes, always have, and always will. But the never-ending denial, lying, spin doctoring BS is tiresome, and damn annoying.
George Carlin talks about this extensively in his book ‘When Will Jesus Bring The Pork Chops?’ Carlin, in his unique candor, covers the incessant growth of the total manipulation of language. It is a book that makes you stop and think and ask ‘What the fuck has happened? How did it get this way? Can I stop it? No, but I can refuse to participate by not copying their example!’
One section, especially, deals with the evolution of denial to admittion, and back to ‘I just want to get on with my life’ ending that seems to permeate every single case of some politician who gets caught. These are supposed to be the best we have for leaders?
I am a big fan of what Harrison Ford told the POTUS in ‘Clear and Present Danger’ First, there was the ‘do not deny, admit’. And second ‘Sorry Mr. President: I don’t dance!’ when the POTUS talked about the Old Potomac Two-step!
When we think about it. How many years of our lives do we waste on these POS’s just waiting for the truth to come out. Too many!
Yesterday marked five years of 9/11. The WTC site is a sideshow…an ugly sideshow of steel fences, signage, and ‘feel good’ marketing scams. It is the boil on America’s face. Yet, they still will not cleanse daily their own souls to truly prevent another reason for people to hate them. They,. at least, are now asking the question openly ‘Why do they hate us?’
Perhaps, were they not our next door neighbor, I would no longer be concerned with their self-made problems. Their Funnymentalist Christians are no different than the Funnymentalist Muslims in my book. Fanaticism is fanaticism…simply as that!
I am grossly disappointed in my former countrymen. They have had their brains washed repeatedly in the backwater of marketing, merchandizing, and meaningless carrot chasing.
That is their problem. But, I truly fear it is close to becoming OUR problem in Canada. Our media is inundated with the same brainless tripe their’s is. We seem to have an inferiority complex that prevents us from finding our own centre now!
Oh, and all the whiners who complain our Loonie is to high I say this ! I can remember when it was worth more than the USD! Can you? It was only back to the late 1980’s.
The Euro is worth a lot more than the USD…So what’s your friggin’ problem? Afraid you might have to actually compete and work to sustain this great country? Afraid you won’t be able to just be the low priced hooker? Get a grip Canada! Get a grip while we still can!
What do you think on these points?
Hey Bill,
I am considerably younger, so I don’t have the benefit of having lived through some of what you have experienced (I can only read about it).
I am one of many who, inspired by the events of 9/11, quit his private sector job and joined a government agency to “make a difference.”
Five years on, I have quickly become discouraged by the bureaucracy and politicking. So, while you are tired of the lying, I am not so much tired of the lying as I am with politicians and executive government bureaucrats who put their own personal agenda ahead of their duty to Canadians.
I am at the point now where, yes, I do think, “How did it get this way? Can I stop it? No, but I can refuse to participate by not copying their example!” Basically, I go to work and try and give the Canadian taxpayer value for his money.
I was in NY last week and I visited ground zero (for the first time). While at ground zero, I couldn’t help but feel that people had asked at one point since 9/11 exactly what you stated: “Why do they hate us?” These were people that most likely had never heard of al Qaeda or Bin Laden at the time. They were just ordinary people on their way to work, raising families, paying taxes, and they did not deserve this. Were you suggesting that Americans brought on 9/11? If so, I’m not so sure I agree. In an era prior to the Iraq war, I am not sure what provoked attacks on the WTC in ‘93, the bombing of the Khobar towers, the bombing of the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the attempted bombing of the USS The Sullivans, and the bombing of the USS Cole other than perverted Islamofascist ideology. I do remember Bin Laden stating in ‘98 that there would be no negotiation with the U.S. “until and unless they convert to Islam.”
Do I think that fundamentalist Christians are the same as fundamentalist Muslims? I’m not sure, but I do think that both Bin Laden and Bush think they are on a mission from God and THAT is dangerous in my mind.
As for the loonie…..Agreed!
i’d add harper to that list. and which duty to canadians are you referring to that bureaucrats are, according to you, not putting ahead of their own personal agendas?
Frank the Democrat.
Great reply. Thank you.
Do I think Americans are responsible for 9/11? I do from this standpoint, and I say this having been an American most of my life and having watched what has happened to the nation slowly over time.
America used to be a real land of opportunity. It expected hard work, determination, and excellence in the little things, and honesty. Americans believed the big things would seldom become a necessary matter as long as the little things were given proper care. Somewhat like maintaining a vehicle. Change the oil and filter and the engine and transmission will give maximum service life.
I wish, I truly do, that I could say ‘Look! Here! This is the point things changed and started going wrong. The day the dream died.’ I know I have spent a great deal of time researching and thinking about that very thing.
I had to read a couple of very recent books to get an even bigger view of the issue than I had. One was ‘John Ralston Saul’s ‘The Collapse of Globalism: and the re-invention of the world’, and the other was ‘Collapse” by Jared Diamond. Diamond looks at the causative factors for various civilizations that have survived or died.
The bottom line may be, note the ‘may be’, this: America, as with the Roman Empire, achieved the pinnacle of military power. It failed, however, to deal with its own internal social problems. So, as time has gone by, the reaction has been more laws, more punishment, and more crime. A society so engrossed with denial will one day, as will the person who refuses to consult a doctor for a chronic condition that has persisted, eventually reach the point of no return.
America, and Canada as well, has areas this is a reality as well, has tried to hide its own internal ailments. Katrina, the most recent example brought to light the horrid living conditions and poverty of New Orleans. It, likewise, proved the U.S. Government, while spending trillions on its military ‘defense’ programs, is incapable of overseeing its internal health. Action, not words are the measure of competency. A lesson apparently forgotten from my early years.
You, as would I, work to make it better. There is a clique in any organizational structure. Such cliques will eventually kill any organization. Why? Because the clique is out of touch with current reality and spends most of their time defending how something was. They are unwilling to change, and therefore, become extinct.
Now, let us apply that lesson to history. The U.S. has been at war in one way or another since its formation. The American Civil War has never been truly settled in the minds of many Southerners. They would revert back to slavery in a heartbeat because they are ignorant and naricissistic. Would they practice the old slavery? Hell no! Way should they? They have the new and improved version based on indebture consumerism. They also do not want to have to take care of the slaves, just use their energy and then cast them off to the landfill.
The have an economy based on approximately 50% of every federal tax dollar being recirculated to the mliitary industrial complex. Therefore, they must maintain justififcation for such waste. This is done by following what Caesar and Goering both promoted…FEAR!
Now, even a purely for profit farmer will take care of his livestock. He will bring in the vet, make sure the proper innoculations are given, and then have a marketable product. Same goes with forests, or any other renewable resource. But not America today. They consume and the, like Rome of old, seek to take what they have wasted from their neighbors or anyone else they deem an easy target. Responsible stewardship is not their forte’!
They claim to be a nation founded on God! Nowadays, and this goes to the MSM mostly, they have gone hyper-religious. Therefore, I see no difference whatsoever between them and the Taliban of other funnymentalist movements. They are hypocrits by their actions.
Yesterday Condoliar Rice was visiting with Peter McKay. What did she say? She guarantees the Afghanistan mission will be a success? Words, only words for which she will have no consequence whatsoever personally.
So, where action that produced verifiable results used to be the norm, today we have a world littered by cute catch phrases to assure the masses that ‘Things are going to be okay!’ It is always presented in the unverifiable future tense…like the carrot before the horse. Dreamers tend to work that way. Looking at history and reality are not their forte’
Therefore, we should choose wisely!
Bill: With respect, how did this guy ever become a pawn of the “Hide 9/11/Pentagon Facts” conspiracy?
Don’t get me wrong; I think the Bush gov’t is very capable of lying. I just think they’re far too incompetent to pull off a conspiracy like the one you think.
Don’t get me wrong; I think the Bush gov’t is very capable of lying. I just think they’re far too incompetent to pull off a conspiracy like the one you think.
I heartily agree with that statement.
Ron,
Bush couldn’t manage a pay toilet operation, but his handlers can. He is a drugged out puppet following orders, or as he believes…Voices in his head!
Bill: Bush could too manage a pay toilet operation
I agree his handlers are smarter, but even if they were smart enough (still debatable) I also don’t think they’d find enough people that would like them so much that they could pull this off.
Time will tell.
“So, where action that produced verifiable results used to be the norm, today we have a world littered by cute catch phrases…”
Exactly. I believe you are referring to the concept of “overpromise and under-deliver.”
Thanks, Bill. Exchanges like these make me wish I had the time to participate more often.
Ron,
I listened to the Popular Mechanics Editor on the program the other night. He reminded me of a few university professors who have spent way too long being worshiped by undergrad students who still are attempting to figure out where they are and why they are there. He came across as a pompous paid denier.
Ever notice how they always get some celeb type, i.e., a person connected to some major something, to act as their spokesperson?
Gotta love Sally Struthers crying for ‘Feed The Children’ or whatever that group was. Yeah, she looks like she has real experience dealing with starvation,,,NOT!
In short, he failed to score any credibility with me.
As to getting people to cooperate…They have all been trained for so long to act like sheep…no problemo! ‘Do what you are told, do not question, and Oh…God bless America!…Now go wave the flag and help protect our freedumbs’…response ‘Yes Master!’
Frank the Democrat,
You are most welcome.
Hi Bill: Maybe so, but if any mag has the technical resources to do a decent sifting of the evidence, it’s that one, and they aren’t known for being political shills.
Ron,
Personally, I regard the pub as a techno-tabloid on the same order as National Enquirer, but with far more interesting stuff.
As to who else could do it? How about Scientific American? National Geographic (or Canadian Geographic).
Bill: Agreeable enough, and I’d love to see Scientific American take this on.
Ron,
So would I! I do not think that will happen though because it requires funding and that tends to come from the government. No, we will just be inundated, as usual, by the Think Tank propaganda where ‘money talks and people walk the talk!’
Now, we haven’t considered Mad Magazine…They would not hold back one iota! LMAO!